Priscilla Collado Ramirez 谈如何减少 WordPress 初学者的焦虑

[00:00:19] Nathan Wrigley： 欢迎收听 WP Tavern 的 Jukebox 播客。我叫 Nathan Wrigley。

Jukebox 是一档专注于 WordPress 各项内容的播客，包括人物、活动、插件、主题、区块，以及本期要探讨的如何通过多种方式减轻 WordPress 初学者的焦虑。

如果你想订阅本播客，可以在选择的播客应用中搜索 WP Tavern，也可以访问 wptavern.com/feed/podcast，并将该网址复制到大多数播客应用中。

如果你有希望我们在播客中分享的话题，我很乐意听取你的意见，也希望你的想法或你本人能登上节目。请访问 wptavern.com/contact/jukebox，并使用那里的表单。

本期播客的嘉宾是 Priscilla Collado Ramirez。Priscilla 从哥斯达黎加跋涉 14 小时参加 WordCamp Europe，因此她成为了参加本次活动路途最远的参与者之一，而且理由充分。她是一名教育工作者、时装设计师和健康教练，对 WordPress 社区许多人面临的一项挑战有着独到见解：WordPress 对初学者而言可能有多么令人不知所措。

Priscilla 曾在 17 年前因信息过载和缺乏社区支持而一度放弃使用 WordPress。如今，她的故事形成了完整的闭环，因为她现在致力于帮助创业者和创意人士在 WordPress 生态中找到方向。她的工作重点是揭开最初那些令人困惑的时刻的神秘面纱，提供切实可行的步骤，并为每一个曾打开全新安装界面、心想“接下来我到底该做什么”的人带来亟需的安心与肯定。

对话重点讨论新用户为何常常感到停滞不前、被过多选择所 paralysy，也就是那句经典的“这取决于”式建议，以及害怕弄坏某个东西或所有东西的担忧。我们谈到理解个人学习风格的重要性——Priscilla 将其称为线性或螺旋式——以及在学生所处的位置与他们相遇，有时还会通过字面意义上的呼吸练习和健康技巧来降低压力、激发真正的学习。

Priscilla 解释了如何通过行动建立使用 WordPress 的信心，以及为什么庆祝小小的成功，例如成功安装一个插件，是不可或缺的。她还分享了自己将整体、平静且耐心的辅导方式带入 WordPress 教育的方法；无论是对于代理机构负责人，还是首次写博客的人，这种方式都同样适用。

如果你曾被 WordPress 无穷无尽的可能性压得喘不过气，难以在这个社区中找到自己的位置，或者只想获得一些实用智慧，让初学者的道路更加轻松，那么本期节目就是为你准备的。

如果你想了解更多，可以访问 wptavern.com/podcast，在节目说明中找到所有链接，也可以找到其他所有节目。

话不多说，下面请听 Priscilla Collado Ramirez。

今天与我一起参加播客的是 Priscilla Collado Ramirez。我知道这并不是正确的发音方式，但你能为我念一下你的名字吗？

[00:03:44] Priscilla Collado Ramirez： 很好，很好。我叫 Priscilla Collado Ramirez，来自哥斯达黎加。

[00:03:48] Nathan Wrigley： 好的，谢谢。我毫不怀疑你是今年参加 WordCamp Europe 路途最远的人，应该会获得这个奖项。我不知道那有多少英里，不过我记得你说好像是 13 个小时。

[00:03:59] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 是啊，在飞机上待了 14 小时。今天是在旅行。但这一切都值得，因为这个欧洲国家太美了。所以我可以全年、全月都做这些。是的，我可以做。

[00:04:13] Nathan Wrigley: 不过我得问问，为什么要一路赶来，花这么多个小时坐飞机，而且你还带来了这些。你在那边有社群吗？哥斯达黎加有没有一个蓬勃发展的 WordPress 圈子？我对此一无所知。

[00:04:28] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 好的。是的，哥斯达黎加有一个很大的社群，是整个拉丁美洲最大的。我有一位朋友，她任职于 GreenGeeks 网页托管公司，是她鼓励我来做这件事。还有 WordCamp Europe，因为成为演讲嘉宾是我的梦想之一。

我已经在自己的国家做过这件事了，但我希望获得更多知识、认识更多人。她告诉我这件事时，我说，是的，我能做到。是的，我想做。

[00:05:06] Nathan Wrigley: 真是了不起。13 小时的飞行旅程，确实令人印象深刻。我得承认，我以前不知道哥斯达黎加算是南美洲的一个好去处。不过现在我知道了。谢谢。我知道你刚刚走出演讲厅，也刚刚结束你所讲的主题。

而你讲的主题至少对我来说非常有意思，因为这让我想起了过去。我从大约 2015 年左右开始进入 WordPress 领域，也算积累了一些经验。

但我确实记得，刚开始使用 WordPress 的时候，参加这类活动让我有点如鱼得水，不知道该怎么办。也不知道该如何使用这款软件，不知道该安装什么、是否应该安装任何东西，自己用的究竟是最好的还是最差的，诸如此类。而你的主题大致就是这种性质。

不过，与其由我来告诉大家你讲了什么，你愿不愿意简单总结一下自己登台演讲的内容？

[00:06:02] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 是的，当然。我也有和你一样的感受。

嗯，我演讲的主题是，为什么 WordPress 会让新手感到不知所措。我曾经就是那个不想安装任何东西的新手。WordPress 很棒，但有时给你的选项太多了，对吧？所以对新手来说，这些选项有时会让人瘫痪，因为我们需要一次只从一个开始。

我看到了本次活动的所有主题，心想，是的，也许我可以分享一点自己与 WordPress 的故事。我讲到自己在 17 年前退出了 WordPress。

[00:06:47] Nathan Wrigley: 你退出了？

[00:06:48] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 是的。我是个退出者。

[00:06:50] Nathan Wrigley: 回头看我的经历，哦，12 年还是多少年来着，根本不算什么。你可是 17 年。那是你退出的时候。好，你继续。抱歉。

[00:06:58] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 是的，不，17 年前，我还在大学里，学习广告和网页设计。我看到那些选项，太多选项，太多东西，我不知道。我感到不知所措。于是我说，这不适合我。我太笨了。我太慢了。不，不。

而 17 年后的今天，我以教育者的身份来到这里，帮助创业者和新手理解 WordPress 环境。

[00:07:29] Nathan Wrigley: What brought you back then? After all that period of time away, what was the catalyst that brought you back? Why did you explore it again?

[00:07:36] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Because I have a fashion school, and I saw my students deal with web designers and sometimes they charging so much money. I see it in the beginners, in my students, I saw that we have a problem with understanding that sometimes the things are not too difficult. We can learn about new tools and new WordPress.

[00:08:06] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, so this was all about your students then. So this was an idea of, I guess the world is kind of an expensive place to be, and one expense that you can get rid of is the cost of your website. There’s tools out there. You can, if you wish to, build it yourself. And then you found WordPress again. How is it the second time? Did you ever go through, I’m going to quit it for a second time, or was it better the next time you came across it?

[00:08:29] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah, and my brother is an engineer and I’m in like a category of non-technical people because I’m a fashion designer. I’m an educator, and I’m a wellness coach. And I think, yeah, maybe I can study a little bit, and if I use my education tools to understand how the brains for the creative people works and try to, out of the box, that sometimes the engineers have, and the creative people. It’s like a disorder, a disorder brain. I can help to these people to understand this environment in this community. And they can do it like I do.

[00:09:22] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. So we’ll get into the bits that you think are problematic with beginning with WordPress in a minute. But just going back to your students and what have you. How’s it been for them? When you are looking at what they’re able to do, has it been a road of success, or has there been quite a lot of failure for them? Basically sum up how your students have coped.

[00:09:43] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Okay. I don’t know, there’s two types of students, right? So we have the students that have a linear path learning. Some students learned like A, B, and C. Okay, you understand things easily. But some of them don’t understand the things like that.

So I try to create a platform, or we can call it like a type of education, and helps to understand, first how their brain works, and later understand the type of learning that I can teach.

[00:10:24] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, let me just make sure I understood that. So you try to figure out what their brain accepts most readily? And then once you figure that bit out, then you begin the WordPress education from there. Okay, that’s interesting.

And you say there’s kind of two types that you’ve kind of determined. And what are those two types?

[00:10:40] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Lineal.

[00:10:41] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, so I think probably linear, like straight lines.

[00:10:46] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah, we have the straight lines and the spiral.

[00:10:49] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, yeah.

[00:10:51] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: So my mind is on the spiral. And that’s why I feel dumb in these technical environments. But I learned that if you learn some topic at the time and without the stress, you can do it and you can follow this community.

[00:11:10] Nathan Wrigley：你刚才用了一个很有意思的词。你说过去曾感觉自己很笨，也许你现在在这里没有这种感觉，我不知道你到底有没有。但你说你过去曾觉得自己很笨。你知道，你参加这些活动时会觉得自己格格不入，我们或许会这么说。就是，我到底在这里干什么？我该怎样融入这幅拼图？

显然，你对此感受很深，首先你离开了，后来又回来了，给它第二次机会。那么，你曾经对自己感到困惑的是哪些事情？过去有哪些事情让你感到不解？又是什么事情吸引你来做这场演讲？

[00:11:47] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：在那段时间里，我觉得自己因为选择太多而不胜其扰。我觉得那时候在我的国家，WordPress 还没那么流行，而且是一个男性主导的环境。那里没有女性。所以我觉得，我不知道，我不是来自那里，我不知道自己在这里该做什么。四年前，我开始与 WordPress 的女性社群交流，我觉得自己变得自信了，而她们也相信我的知识。

而且我觉得，是的，我可以再做一次。我可以走近这个社群，可以学习，也可以成为一名导师，帮助初学者明白，这不是技术环境。社区如何与你的目标互动、如何被利用，以及如何帮助你实现目标。

[00:12:50] Nathan Wrigley：所以我想深入谈谈你刚才提到的一点，也就是你所处的社群。我不知道现在是否还是一样，但你暗示当时主要是男性。

你在那里找到过女性 WordPress 用户吗？还是你必须参加 Zoom 通话之类的活动，才能找到那个社群？或者它现在已经壮大了，不再只是男性？

[00:13:14] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：是的，我在 2023 年协助过首批女性演讲者。我看到时会想，好吧，这是一个面向女性的 WordPress 群组。而那个群组是面向 WordPress 女性演讲者的。所以我就想，好吧，WordPress 不只是男性的，WordPress 也不只是技术人员的。而且，我想我可以走近那个社群。17 年前并不是这样。

全是男人，而且是些很古板的男人。因为我知道有很多很manly的男人，但在那个年代，确实都是些古板的男人，而我的弟弟也有点古板。我当时就想，不，我很风趣，我想表达自己，我想成为演讲者之类的。现在我觉得，因为我改变了对这个社群和 WordPress 的看法，所以我可以借助 WordPress 达成自己的目标。

[00:14:20] Nathan Wrigley：那么，先撇开社群以及诸如此类的事情不谈，只谈你从网上下载并安装到某个服务器上的实际软件，然后开始搭建网站。我猜这也是其中一部分，因为刚开始时很难：当你安装某个版本的 WordPress 后，基本上只能靠自己摸索。你知道，在帮助方面其实没有太多支持。你得自己寻找帮助，找一个 YouTube 频道，或者某个友善的人站在你身旁帮你解决问题。

你认为人们开始使用 WordPress 时会遇到哪些障碍和问题是你希望得到解决的？

[00:14:58] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：是的。首先，大家都认为 WordPress 只是一个网站。我想分享一下这一点。WordPress 不只是一个网站，对吧？它还是一个社区。你可以参与并表示，我想学习如何制作博客和网站。但这个社区远不止于此。我觉得人们还没有真正理解，WordPress 究竟是什么。

[00:15:30] Nathan Wrigley：是的。嗯，我用了大概四年 WordPress，也许是三年半、四年之类的，之后才知道原来还有这样一个社区。我的意思是，我确实意识到了它的存在，因为这款软件是被人开发出来的。所以我意识到，在幕布的另一边一定有人在做这件事。而我是免费使用它的，所以他们大多可能没有因此获得报酬。

但我没有参加活动，因为我不知道有什么活动可参加。后来我去参加了一场在伦敦举行的活动，那可能是当时离我最近的大型活动。我感到非常惊讶。我当时想，好吧，大概会有 600 人到场，我真没想到会有这么多人。我以为也许会有 12 或 15 人之类。结果到了现场，600 人。对我来说，那一刻 WordPress 才变得更有意思了一点，因为我意识到，好吧，它不只是在页面上的像素，不只是这些网站。它的背后实际上还有一个由众多人组成的完整社区。

而我很快发现的事情之一是，那些人会分享彼此的许多东西，他们与我的生活有很多重合。你知道，他们生活中的很多事情似乎与我的生活也有很多相通之处。我们对很多事情都有一致看法。我们都希望这个项目能够成功。所以就像你说的，发现这个社区真的是一件非常重要的事。

不过，即便我没有发现这个社区，我仍然会继续使用它，因为到那时，我已经解决了该安装哪些插件以及如何使用这款软件的问题。

是的。那我们接着聊这个吧。就软件本身来说，我们已经知道社区的存在了。那么，我想问问你，你的学生可能遇到过，或者根据你个人的经验，你看到过哪些问题？软件本身有哪些问题？你都遇到过哪些情况？

[00:17:21] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 是的。我发现选择太多了，人们不知道如何安装。而这就是新手的问题。我为什么要安装插件、主题？对于技术人士来说，就是，好吧，这要看情况。

[00:17:39] Nathan Wrigley: 哦，永远都是看情况。

[00:17:41] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 永远要看情况。而且，对初学者来说，这会让人感到手足无措。

[00:17:45] Nathan Wrigley: 好吧。这是个有趣的表达，不是吗？所以你说让人手足无措是什么意思？我们说要看情况，意思就是，哦，把所有东西都试一遍。看看哪些有效。你是说，根据你的经验，看情况意味着什么都别做，我们不知道，也不确定。

[00:18:00] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 是的。而且初学者不知道该做什么，对吧？

[00:18:03] Nathan Wrigley: 好吧，是的，这么说这确实没什么帮助，看情况，是吗？

好吧，那么我们该如何克服这一点？除了不断说这要看情况之外，我也不知道还能做什么。我想，我们得鼓励人们去尝试。

好吧，让我稍微倒回去一点。所以我第一次把手机交到父母手上时，我已经替他们把移动电话全部设置好了，你知道，一切都能正常使用。我把它交给他们，以为他们会采用和我一样的方式，也就是随便摆弄一下，然后自己就能弄明白。

哦，不。什么都不要碰——我会把它弄坏吗？这会把它毁掉吗？如果我在这里按删除键，是不是整个东西都会……这个应用现在就会消失吗？

所以，我觉得你的意思是，基本上人们会害怕：如果我安装了某个东西，后来不需要了，或者不喜欢了，那我该怎么办？大概是这样吗？这种对它的恐惧。

[00:18:59] Priscilla Collado Ramirez： 是的，因为你会感到不知所措，也会感到瘫痪。你会想，好吧，这里有一条学习路径，对吧？所以你先是感到兴奋。于是，对，我要用 WordPress。然后就困惑了。这是什么？接着就会想，不，我不知道，也许这不适合我，因为选择实在太多了。

我会带着学生一步一步地来，首先弄清楚什么是插件，对吧？你真的需要插件吗？真的需要主题吗？需要 SEO 插件吗，或者……我不知道？

所以，我首先尝试与创业者合作，因为有些创业者有时就是搞不明白。我不知道，电子邮件是什么？邮件该怎么发送。他们非常聪明，学习能力也非常强，但有时候，作为教育者或导师，我们心里会认为人们很容易就能学会。有时候并非如此。所以你得像教孩子一样去教。并不是因为这些人很愚蠢，对吧？而是因为对他们来说，学习过程有所不同。

[00:20:30] Nathan Wrigley： 是的，我想你终究得走到让自己感到自在的地步。对于有些人来说，我不知道，我们就用“技术型”这个词吧。那些有计算机使用背景的技术型人才，天天都在用电脑，也经常尝试新东西。我想，如果把 WordPress 放到他们面前，他们立刻就会上手。他们就是会去做那类事情。但我完全明白你的意思。

对我来说，面对技术时，我会尝试、摆弄，因为我知道基本没有什么东西真的会被弄坏。如果出了问题，我直接删掉就行。所以我会想到手机上的应用、电脑上的应用，以及 WordPress、插件、主题和所有这些东西。我完全明白没有什么东西会把它弄死。嗯 Hopefully 没有什么东西会把它弄死，我只要把不理解的东西移除掉就行。

不过话说回来，如果你把我拎起来，放进一个不同的行业，我也会变成那种人。我会成为一个需要循序渐进的人，我想你说过需要像孩子一样一步一步来，因为我不熟悉那个领域。所以我一时想不出具体例子，但基本上把我放到任何一个没有技术的行业里，我都会感到同样的焦虑。我该怎么办？你能检查一下我所做的操作是否安全吗？好的。你能再检查一遍吗？再检查一遍，以确保所有操作都安全。我想你说的就是，要一点一点地带着他们入门。等他们走过这些初级步骤后，希望他们就能独立行动了。

[00:21:54] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 这句话我在这次演讲中想了很多，因为你提到了信心之类的说法。我写道：信心不会先于行动产生。信心是通过行动建立的。

[00:22:14] Nathan Wrigley: 是的，确实如此。所以每个人在某个时候都必须跨过那道障碍。有些人不论面对什么都似乎充满信心，但也有很多人并非如此。如果像你说的那样，引导他们一步步来，告诉他们：你需要插件吗？什么是插件？这就是一个插件。怎样才能把插件安装到你的网站上？你能删除插件吗？主题、自定义代码以及诸如此类的东西也都一样。这样可行吗？你有没有注意到，人们会从“啊，我害怕”变成“哦，这都没问题”。

[00:22:47] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 他们会觉得：“这并没有那么难，我可以做到。”我也不知道，我有各种各样、各个社会经济背景的学生。我的学生中有不少年龄在 50 到 60 岁之间。他们会想：“不，我年纪太大了，学不了网站制作，也学不了设计方面的东西。”而我的做法更具创造性。建构主义系统是一种教育策略，其核心理念是：你通过实践来学习。

[00:23:27] Nathan Wrigley: 就像你说的，通过行动获得信心。

[00:23:29] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 完全正确，完全正确。所以你可以踏上学习之路，犯一些小错误，并逐渐获得信心，从而在学习环境中感到安心。

[00:23:42] Nathan Wrigley：你是个有耐心的人吗？

[00:23:45] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：有时候是。

[00:23:45] Nathan Wrigley：是的。因为我之前描述我的父母使用手机时，他们身上有一点这种情况：同一件事我演示了九遍，每次他们都会说，好吧，这样做、这样做，好，现在这样做、再这样做。但到了第十遍，结果还是以完全相同的方式出错。我只是 wonder 其中是否也有一点这方面的因素？我不知道，是不是有些人就是永远无法克服。如果 WordPress 对某些人来说确实太难了。还是说你们总会继续推进并取得成功？你们总会帮助人们学会，并让他们达到那个自信的阶段？

[00:24:23] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：是的。是的，是的。每天都是。对，每一天。我认为，导师和教育者首先必须热爱这项工作，以爱来教学。

然后，要理解人们的学习方式并不相同。我可以说年长的人，因为我年纪也大了，而且你看到过一个年长的人，就会想，这人比我年纪还大，但其实并不是。

[00:24:55] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. and some people are kind of, what, we would describe as kinesthetic learners. So they doing is the way. Some people are kind of auditory, and they hear the solution and they learn from hearing. And other people it’s visual. You know, they see the, watch a video and, oh, I’ve got that now. And I guess you’ve got to figure out which ones, how they fit in. If I show you once, you’re fine. If I show you once, well that’s not going to work. You’ve got to actually do it and copy me. And once you’ve figured out what kind of learners they are. You must have a lot of time for these people by the sounds of it.

[00:25:25] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah, of course.

[00:25:27] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, and do you literally have an endless amount of time to educate them or do you have like a, I don’t know, you’ve got 10 hours or whatever it is and after 10 hours we’re going to get new people in? Or do you just stick with them throughout the whole journey?

[00:25:38] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah, yeah. And most beginners and most entrepreneurs isn’t that way, right? And they’re so excited to understand the process. And when I explain how the brain works, they think, oh, yeah, it’s not the system, it’s me.

[00:25:59] Nathan Wrigley: But also I can do something about it.

[00:26:00] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah.

[00:26:01] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, okay. That’s interesting. Okay.

I’m going to give you superpowers for a minute. I’m going to say that you are in charge of WordPress entirely. It’s up to you what we do to improve this experience. What would you change? that could be the software. It could be education that you suddenly provide, you know, you would whip up many, many courses or whatever. I don’t know. I’m just curious to know what you think.

So again, superhero powers. You get to decide the future of WordPress. What little changes would you make here and there?

[00:26:32] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: I’m going a little bit too far off WordPress, and I’m going to bring wellness tools first.

[00:26:41] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So it gets bigger.

[00:26:42] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah, it’s bigger. I’m a wellness coach first of all, and first you have to try to understand the stress, and your mind. And then you can learn. I feel like my superpower will be an educator in wellness first, because we have to manage the stress of learning.

[00:27:04] Nathan Wrigley: So you have to approach the computer, but calmly. You have to get there and arrive in an equanimous state. Nice and calm.

[00:27:14] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah, and understand that the delete button doesn’t exist. Because you are going to learn that, yeah, you can delete it, but you are going to breathe, and stay calm, and you won’t be delete anything because you, on the learning process of your mind understanding that everything is a process.

After that, I have an idea, I don’t know my superpower, I would like to do the mentor of the mentors first.

[00:27:49] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, teach the teachers.

[00:27:51] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah, yeah. Because we have mentors in WordPress, but the mentors sometimes doesn’t study at the university education, right? Is an engineer trying to teach another engineer, or an engineer teach to entrepreneur or a beginner, so their minds works different.

[00:28:14] Nathan Wrigley: Yes. I’ve encountered this in the real world. You know the educator who gets really angry with you and tuts, sort of goes tut tut, because you’re not doing what the way they would do it. It just turns out that, if you just ask me in a different way, I’ll probably figure it out.

[00:28:29] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah, exactly.

[00:28:30] Nathan Wrigley: Sorry I interrupted, carry on. So educating the educators.

[00:28:33] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: And in all the fields is the same way, because I’m a fashion designer too, but I have to learn how to be an educator, and how to try to explain some things to my students and try to get off to my mind box.

So I want to make some changes too, and add some of these tools on WordPress. I don’t know, maybe this is my superpower, like be a spiral mind.

[00:29:07] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, yeah. But I think teaching the teachers. So I think we would use the word pedagogy for that. Meaning, how to teach basically. The science, if you like, of imparting knowledge. And maybe there is nothing like that at the moment. And if there isn’t something like that, it would be interesting to explore how different people with different minds and different approaches. Maybe your first idea of everybody approach the computer in a calm way. Maybe that gets rid of some of that problem. At least we’re approaching and we’re not getting we begin.

But I think you’re onto something there, in that I know that I don’t learn in the same way as my children do. I don’t learn in the same way as my parents do. And so having that in the background, and educating the educators so that they’re aware that those kind of things exist.

Okay, you’ve still got the superpowers. Is there anything else that you would do before I take them away?

[00:29:56] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Okay, okay. I think that understand the brain is a supercomputer. It’s also a big topic because you can programming your mind. I would love to teach that people can programming itself. I don’t know what other superpower.

[00:30:17] Nathan Wrigley: Well that’s okay. You’ve had it for probably about five minutes now. That’s more than most people get.

So yeah. So in your experience, I know that you are obviously trying to overcome this problem, and it sounds like you get most people through it, and people manage to come out the other side and are, you know using WordPress successfully. But despite that, do you still think out there in the wider community, not where you are, do you still think that people are being turned off by the problem at the beginning of, I don’t know what to do. I think that I should be able to figure this out, but I can’t. I’m frustrated. It’s annoying me. Ah, move on, or forget the whole thing altogether.

[00:30:53] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Okay. I give you some tools. I wrote it. Limit the choices. Yeah, because one plugin at a time. Yeah, understand one topic at a time.

[00:31:05] Nathan Wrigley: When you say that, are you, meaning, let’s say for example, that we’re getting into the, oh, I don’t know, the realm of SEO, we’ve managed to get into that subject. We know that there’s like 500 SEO plugins. Just show them one, just pick one, concentrate on that one and figure out how that works. And then maybe reveal that there’s others or something like that.

[00:31:25] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah. But sometimes, maybe I have to understand your world first, and maybe you don’t need SEO tools? Because maybe you wanted to sell, I don’t know, plants. So do you really need a SEO plugin? Yeah, maybe not. So I have to understand your business first, or your purpose first, and then I can share you one plugin for that.

[00:31:56] Nathan Wrigley: Right, so, but at the end of the day, it’s still limit it rather than the plugin overwhelm. 78,000 plugins on the repo or whatever it is. One at a time is probably for a beginner more than enough. Learn how to install it. How to uninstall it. Learn the kind of things that you can do with it, whether that’s SEO or a form plugin or whatever. Okay, it looks like you’re ready for another one, yeah.

[00:32:15] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah. I have, normalise confusion.

[00:32:19] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, so be happy with being confused and muddled up.

[00:32:23] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah, because it’s a new topic for you. So you have to understand that it is fine if you feel confusion, because your brain is adapting to that learning process.

[00:32:34] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, we’re not good at that, are we? We’re really good at being annoyed by confusion. Confusion’s the enemy in many ways, isn’t it? But it’s really not. I mean, who can expect to learn something new and immediately understand everything? No, but we don’t allow ourselves to do that, do we? We get annoyed with confusion.

That’s a good one. I like that. Carry on, sorry.

[00:32:54] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: And celebrate the small wins. I’m doing right now. I’m realise that I have to celebrate the small wins, because sometimes we overwhelm and have too many expectations. It is one step at a time, baby steps.

[00:33:11] Nathan Wrigley: So that one is basically when something goes right. So once you’ve got over your confusion and something’s gone right, sit back, examine it. Ah, well done. Pat on the back kind of thing. Yeah, okay. That’s nice.

[00:33:22] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah. And emotional reset tools.

[00:33:26] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. You’re going to have to explain that one.

[00:33:29] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Okay. I’m going to explain you here, because I want to explain you pretty well, and sometimes I get I stuck in the language.

Okay, when beginners get frustrated, we must do simple pauses, like breathing. The process of breathing is called pranayama. In pranayama is the art of the breathing. When we born, the first thing that I will do is breathe. And when you are crying, the people say, no, no, breathe, breathe, right? And when you are, I don’t know, when you swimming, and you.

[00:34:09] Nathan Wrigley: Drowning maybe.

[00:34:11] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Drowning yeah, you want to breathe. So the breathing is so important.

[00:34:16] Nathan Wrigley：所以，这就是暂停练习的一部分。暂停、呼吸，好。

[00:34:20] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：是的。它们还能减轻认知负荷，帮助初学者更清晰地继续学习，调节大脑和压力。

[00:34:32] Nathan Wrigley：所以我觉得自己学习时根本没做这些事。我只是一味地向前冲，指望自己表现得很好。等没有达到预期，我就会变得痛苦和恼火。我也从不会想，好吧，冷静下来，呼吸一下，恭喜自己。我大多都是独自学习的。你知道，我待在房间里看视频或读东西，所以没人提醒我呼吸、冷静下来、放松、恭喜自己。所以我很高兴这些人能出现在你的生活中，让这一切成为现实。

抱歉，继续。

[00:35:03] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：不，不。我希望大家理解的一句话是：学习不会发生在压力之下，而是发生在头脑感到足够安全、能够探索的时候。

[00:35:19] Nathan Wrigley：是的，我深有同感。这完全说得通，不是吗？当你紧绷着、担心各种事情时，什么东西都记不住，对吧？所以还是回到冷静这个话题吧。

[00:35:30] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：对，对。

[00:35:31] Nathan Wrigley：是的，这些都是很好的建议。对啊，我真希望自己也能做到。

[00:35:36] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：是的。有时候，人们首先会感到压力 overwhelmed，压力太大了。我有太多导师，这给我带来了压力，而且我不知道，他们没有让我对自己一直在学的东西产生任何信心。

[00:35:55] Nathan Wrigley：听你这么说，我觉得你提出的方法可能会被称为整体性的。因为它同时关注头脑和身体，这是最基本的两部分。如果这些没有保持完好并正常运作，那不管你把那本书读多少遍，都永远学不会任何东西。

[00:36:12] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：但有时，对技术圈的人来说，“整体性”这个词听起来就像是在说：你是个嬉皮士。

[00:36:17] Nathan Wrigley：嗯，确实有一点这种感觉，不是吗？我觉得技术圈的人往往对这类事情抱着一种颇为轻视、敬而远之的态度。因为这不算科学，如果你明白我的意思。它似乎不属于那个范畴。我在想，如果我现在去和外面的一千人聊一聊，实际上可能真会有这么大的阻力。

[00:36:38] Priscilla Collado Ramirez：哦，人们会走开的。

[00:36:38] Nathan Wrigley：好吧，好吧。不过你知道，这确实有效。而且大家都知道这类事情有效。因为如果你保持冷静，我想难点在于，你必须允许自己接受需要冷静这一点，也必须用这种方式去学习，而这很难。我会觉得这相当难。你知道，如果我来到你的教育机构，假设你在教我 WordPress，一开始我心里会有一点想法：好吧，先跟着敲，然后想着 WordPress 什么时候开始？

而你可能会说，我们现在需要冷静下来，对吧？所以我猜你得打好这场仗。

[00:37:13] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah. Yeah. And last year I was a speaker in my country, and I’m talking about how manage the stress, the people that works like eight hours on the computer. You can use too many tools to release the back, the breathing. And everybody needs release the stress. Sometimes in technical environments, the people don’t engage with the holistic path because they think that.

[00:37:46] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I confess I’ve had years of doing that kind of stuff. Just expecting my body to be able to keep pace with whatever I’m doing, and expecting that if I sit in a chair for 12 hours, that everything’s going to be fine. I’m just going to stand up and walk away. And of course, it’s not.

Do you know, it’s really interesting, I don’t know that anybody’s doing this. Maybe you know a load of people that are carrying out this kind of a practice. But it feels like you’ve kind of, forgive me if I’ve got the wrong language here, but it feels like you’ve kind of bolted something close to meditation onto technology. Which is really curious, because I don’t know that anybody, maybe this is common where you are. I don’t know, but.

[00:38:27] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: No, it’s not. It’s not because I’m a sound therapist, and I’m a sound healer. The sound can heal you. I am trying to people understand that you can’t live like a computer. You are not a computer. You can program in your brain like a computer, but you are not a robot. And you need to stop.

[00:38:51] Nathan Wrigley: I think, we’re too attached to our devices, aren’t we? I think whenever the mobile phone came along, we finally gave up free time. And email is there 24/7. Social media’s there 24/7. Technology’s there 24/7. Yeah, breathe is basically what you’re saying.

[00:39:10] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah. And in my country, no, it is not common. It is not common and it is a little rare. And maybe in another country it is normal to finish your labour at work and meditate one minute.

[00:39:26] Nathan Wrigley: Oh no. Nobody does that where I live, no.

[00:39:30] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: I don’t know if there is any country, doesn’t do it, right?

[00:39:32] Nathan Wrigley: That would be nice. Yeah you’d probably feel really good after that.

[00:39:35] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Maybe in China? Maybe Japan?

[00:39:38] Nathan Wrigley: Maybe where they a different approach to living. Do you want to roll your thing out? The way that you are doing this, do you want to roll that out to other people? Do you want people to kind of approach you and, I don’t know, study what you are doing, and then go off and do that kind of thing elsewhere? Is that part of why you’ve come to an event like this? To sort of preach the gospel of this idea, this way of learning?

[00:40:01] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: Yeah, yeah. I would love to. I would love the people understanding maybe, I don’t know, create me a plugin about wellness. I don’t know.

[00:40:12] Nathan Wrigley: 好，那么正在收听这段节目的任何人，Priscilla 希望与那些认为自己或许能够参与进来的人沟通。我知道有几 位人，他们不妨说，会把冥想之类的活动作为每日惯例的一部分。既然如此，正在收听这段节目的任何人，如果大家想在网上找到你，最佳渠道是哪里？如果人们想取得联系，聊聊这些更宏观的问题——教育、学习、平静下来、冥想之类的——我们该在哪里找到你？

[00:40:37] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 在 Gravatar 上，在 WordPress 页面上，还有 Instagram。

[00:40:42] Nathan Wrigley: 我想我已经掌握了其中大多数渠道的信息，但如果还缺，我会向你索取，然后把它们放到 WP Tavern 网站上。所以亲爱的听众，如果你搜索这期节目，搜索有 Priscilla 参与的那一期。我现在还不知道那一期的期号，但如果你搜索有 Priscilla 参与的那一期，如果你有一些想要帮忙的直觉想法，就去找这一期节目，你就能联系到她。说不定会有所收获。

所以 Priscilla，谢谢你今天与我聊天。

[00:41:07] Priscilla Collado Ramirez: 哦，也谢谢你。记得呼吸。